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i'm toure. in "the cycle," the president has a plan to drive our energy prices down. >> i'm steve kornacki. are we in for a flew winning streak on main street?

>> i'm krystal ball. we say lean forward. cheryl sandberg says lean in. another powerful woman is telling women to lean back. >> i'm se cupp. i am in d.c. for meetings. mysterious, i know. right now the president is wrapping up a big announce many at one of the energy department's largest national laboratories for scientific research. at a time of austerity, he wants to dedicate $2 billion to research for developing advance technology cars. it would come from energies paid by offshore oil and gas drilling. he is calling at this time energy security trust. he first mentioned it in his state of the union address. without this infusion of cash, research labs like the national lab four where the president is

today stand to lose federal grants under the sequester. lab directors warn it will devastate u.s. scientific research for decades. the president says, it is these cutting edge breakthrough technology that's will make america a competitive jobs magnet for decades to come. >> we can't afford to miss these opportunities while the rest of the world races forward. we have to seize these opportunities. i want the next great job creating breakthroughs, whether it is an energy or a nano technology or bioengineering. i want those breakthroughs to be right here in the united states of america. creating american jobs and maintaining our technological leap. >> most of the $90 billion in 2009 seeing this money for clean energy programs is gone. like most things in washington, this new trust needs congressional approval. you can bet some republicans will spin it as another energy tax on producers. let's bring in jonathan to talk about this. i see u.s. oil production at an

eight-year high. reliance on oil at a 16-year low. it sounds good. this has an impact on everything from how we fill up at the pump to foreign policy questions. how we interact with the entire middle east. this is a gigantic change, isn't it? >> it is a gigantic change. look. there are a lot of form of energy out there but we're still relying on oil more domestically, not where most americans would like to be in terms of that ratio. you're right. it has implications for foreign policy. so i don't think we're going to see the end of american reliance on oil any time soon. >> you know, one of the energy issues, jonathan, that president obama has really done his best not to deal with head on because of the political sensitivities is this key stone pipeline. i know he got an earful from republicans this week who have been urging all along for him to approve this and get it going. he has seen maybe this week to

signal tentatively that's the direction he will go in. obviously environmentalists are putting pressure on him not to. what do you think will run the course for the key stone pipeline? >> i'm not entirely sure. a decision hasn't come out yet. i think if you were to character ties statements he's made behind closed doors to republicans and the statement that his press secretary, or spokesman made today, which suggested that pipelines don't contribute to climate change issues. that they would be more, or better defined as leaning in than leaning back. >> and jonathan, we referenced in the op ed that was written for the atlantic. one of the thing they mentioned was that the nobel prize winning economist robert solow has calculated that over half the past half century, more than half of the growth in our nation's gdp has been rooted in scientific discoveries. arguing for the president's

approach. do you think that sort of message resonates with the public since it is so far in the future? or are they for solutions that are more immediate? how do you think that the political sell on this goes for the president? >> i'm not sure that the public is paying a lot of attention to how many resources are expended on research and development. whak tell you is r&d money is something that has long been believed in by both democrats and republicans. it is something supported. whether through the defense department or through the nih where disclosure, my mother works there. where they do scientific grants. wherever the money goes, republicans and democrats have largely agreed that is a good use of federal money. that it is seed partly sunny that attracts private money. the question is, can we afford it? can we afford the dollars right now that president obama is suggesting we put into that versus some of the other priorities? i think that's what washington will wrestle with. >> exactly where i wanted to go.

how does a push for energy efficiency now, money aside, just work politically with the president having so many other goals on the table, hammering out a budget with republicans. getting a comprehensive energy reform. gun control. does this push diminish any of those other initiatives? or does it get lost in the mix? >> i think it gets lost in the mix. not that the president won't get anything he wants out of this but i think that this is not his top priority. it is one that will have to be sub himated to some of those other things. the budget deal, the gun control and immigration reform. so i think it is something that he wants to get attention for. i think he wants to tell folks who care about energy alternatives that he is with them. but whether or not this ends up a big push for him, i don't know. republicans will argue that all that stimulus money went out to alternative energy forms and

then now a few years later, everyone is crying poor if the money gets cut back. >> he's talking about the president's other initiatives. one of the thing within that, trying to make that happen is the charm offensive. but the charm offensive really doesn't matter, as steve talked about. lbj had the house and the senate. as charlieing as he was, he had a d.c. that wanted to work with him. the president has a house that does not want to work with him. it is incentivized to not work with him and go home to their bullet proof districts and say i stood up on hagel or whatever. it is not the point. it is the point that he has these bullet proof districts to deal with. >> the president missed a great opportunity to walk into the republican caucuses in the senate and the house and come one something that he was willing to put on the table that he has not yet done. it is going to take both sides to put thing on the table or to actually give up things that their side wants. i was surprise that had the president didn't have any new

suggestions of things that he might be willing to give up in a negotiation. i think there was really an opportunity for that. what you've got on both sides is folks agreeing that they have common ground. for example original means testing of medicare. on chain cpi. there is some agreement that those things should be done but neither side is willing to agree to it because they want more and they don't want to give up the easy things in order to get more. it sounds kind of crazy. they're both saying i'm not going on move until you move. but jonathan, i have to take issue with that characterization. for democrats, that is what they're putting on the table. they don't want to cut benefits to social security themselves don't want means testing. that's the thing that they're giving up in the negotiation. what we haven't seen the republicans put a single tax loophole on the table that they would be willing to close. so in the meeting yesterday, we saw dave camp say why don't we just go ahead and pass chain cpi? we don't want chain cpi just in and of itself.

we want it if the republicans are willing to give something in exchange that would make that worthwhile. >> that's certainly something the democrats feel like they're giving on. i would say this white house has been much farther out on those things for a lot longer than the democratic party at large has been. so there's some discomfort among the democrats in congress. it is not exactly like these are things the president opposes, that he is giving up. or that he thinks are lesser priorities and he is willing to give them up. these are things that make sense to a lot of democrats. as long term fixes for these programs. so it is giving up something on their part but not a lot. it is basically, and i think you're right, that the republicans have been unwilling to give up loopholes or even talk about giving up loopholes on things that i think really shouldn't be that hard for them to get to. maybe like a corporate jet tax break, for instance. >> all right. jonathan allen. >> which by the way technically

is not a loophole. >> glad you got that cleared up. up next, the conservative party in the year cpac, they say it's spring break, they say it is prom. i will take root canal instead, please. "the cycle" rolls on. st. patrick's day is sunday. we're playing some big bad songs to set the tone. [ male announcer ] when it comes to the financial obstacles military families face, we understand. our financial advice is geared specifically to current and former military members and their families. life brings obstacles. usaa brings retirement advice. [ male announcer ] the rhythm of life. [ whistle blowing ] where do you hear that beat? campbell's healthy request soup lets you hear it... in your heart. [ basketball bouncing ] heart healthy. great taste. mmm... [ male announcer ] sounds good. it's amazing what soup can do.

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as mentioned i am in washington today but not for cpac which is happening just

across the river outside the beltway. >> when it come to immigration, you know that the 11 million illegals, even if given the right to vote, you know, you're going to have to do what's right. the fact is 11 million people will be voting democratic. why aren't we letting people in from europe? i have many friends, many, many friends, and nobody wants to talk about this, nobody wants to say it. >> there are only two reasons for government to create that federal registry of gun owners. to tax them or to take them. the vice president of the united states actually told women facing an attack to just empty their shotguns into the air. honestly. have they lost their minds over at the white house? >> all eyes are on cpac's heavy hitters. name one one who could be a player in 2016. paul ryan focused his speech this morning squarely on the

budget and jobs. he was all about the number. one number he didn't mention, 2012. nor did he reference his running mate mitt romney who spoke at the conference this afternoon. >> i'm sorry i won't be your president but i will be your co-worker and i will work shoulder to shoulder alongside you. [ applause ] you see in the end, in the end we'll win. we'll win for the same reason we have won before. because our cause is just and it is right. >> this has been a really big

week. we got white smoke from the vatican, and we got a budget from the senate. but when you read it, you find that the vatican is not the only place blowing smoke this week. >> boom! any way, eric cantor takes the stage in a few minutes and jeb bush is slated as the lead act tonight. a lot of people will be watching for that. guys, i think what's crazy is that yesterday, believe it or not, a democratic pollster, an unassuming democratic pollster, the same pollster responsible for getting jimmy carter elected, pat blew the roof off of cpac yesterday with a blistering attack on the gop's consulting class. i don't know if it will get as much attention as some of other speeches but from what i've seen and read about that moment, it really knocked the crowd out of the he talk about what he called

clec, the consuling lobbying establishment complex responsible for sort of aligning their own pockets and influencing these elections in their own self-interest. losing these elections. he really attacked the people around romney and the people who continue to sort of lead these elections of both national and state level. do disastrous things for the party. i think calling them out was a sobering and really important message and i hope everyone heard it in that cpac tent yesterday. >> i'm not sure about the could not ten of what he said yesterday. when i hear his name, it always promise a reaction from me. he is invariably described as a democratic pollster, a democratic -- a democrat. he really isn't. this is a guy who in ancient history. yeah, he work for jimmy carter. he's been alien aid from the democratic for it nor a generation. i call him the quintessential

fox news democrat. the guy who goes in front of republican you had a yengss on cpac, who will go on the fox news channel and will take the republican talking point of the moment and he will bee moan -- this is guy after the 2010 mid-term election wrote an op ed that said yeah, president obama if he has any, the only thing president obama can do is announce he won't seek re-election in 2012. or democrats shouldn't run against iraq in 2006 because they won't win. >> it doesn't matter that he is a fox news democrat. that's not the point. he is a pollster. and he is not repeating republican talking points. this is something republicans are not talking about. >> i'm taking this for very muching years. here's the more substantive thing. what interested me about what has happened so far is the reaction that rand paul generated yesterday of i think he was sort of the star, the first day of cpac.

this to me represents yet another sign of what i'm seeing as the mainstreaming within the republican party in the conservative movement of rand paul and paulism. you think of his father. his father basically spoke like he was giving a lecture at a college. he did not have applause lines. he didn't work in contemporary references of he just talk about gold, gold, gold. and rand paul, there were punchy applause lines, a simple coherent message. he knows how to make inroads into the conservative movement, into the republican party and who is watching as the republican party and certain issues moves closer to him. this is a guy to watch who has a lot more potential. >> the republican high want to talk about today is rob portman. talking about how he has completely done a 180 on gay marriage and gay rights. and i'm really proud of him. this is a man who was pro doma.

pro stopping gay couple from adopting. and he said, we were surprised to learn he and his wife were surprised to learn that their son is gay two years ago. but we knew he was still the same person he had always been. and in that moment, he sort of showing what america is going through. we are getting to know people in our family, people in our friends' circles are coming out to us. we're saying, this is the same person who i loved yesterday. why i would change my feelings when that person hassle me who they really and truly are. in the maps coming out, in our friends and popular culture, gayness is getting normalized and a lot of people are having to change their minds and saying i will support their rights. and when a republican has been so against these rights, turns around and listens to his heart and his family rather than his pollsters. i'm proud of him for being able to make that shift. when i see things like this happen, it says the movement, the march toward gay rights

cannot be stopped. >> i totally agree with all of that. if you want to talk about political courage, this is some serious political courage. the first republican sitting senator to come out in support of marriage equality. that is incredible. as you said, toure, i think his story is very much like the story of america on this issue. as we get to know more and more gay and lesbian people. as we see they're in our families. it cannot help but to change your mine. and i have to say, even though we haven't seen any sitting elected, other sitting elected officials tomorrow come out and say i have had an evolution as a result of rob portman's comments, we haven't seen the sort of blanket condemnation that we may have seen before. i think that is encouraging. they're sending a message saying, we respect his decision. john boehner said that. newt gingrich said something similar. we respect his decision which mean there is room in the republican party tent for people

who support marriage equality. who support gay rights. now primaries down the road, that may be another story. i think it is incredibly encouraging development. and i think we will see between now and 2016, major evolutions within the republican party on this issue. >> i can't manning the terror that his son must have felt wanting to come out to his father who had been pro constitutional amendment and then finding the courage to do that. >> we have an interesting test, is this safe in the republican party to be coming out for gay marriage coming up in 2014. one of the republican congressmen from new york, he sign the supreme court, he said let's get rid of proposition 8. the conservative who's took out a number of state senators who had voted for gay marriage in new york are saying they will come after him. >> if they're saying, don't be cynical about this. the guys come around to the right side of the issue.

embrace him. >> here's the test. let's see if a guy like richard can do this and can survive primary, and maybe even fend off a primary know that's a sign of progress. >> yeah. hallelujah, guys. i'm glad to hear you congratulate rob portman as i do as well. that issue is why i'm not at cpac this weekend. this is significant because of who rob portman is. he is not, you know, a young libertarian conservative from the coast. he is a christian social conservative from middle america. so as you say, this hopefully gives other conservatives like hill permission and cover to evolve similarly. >> a great day. thanks to rob portman. of course, cpac is also conducting its traditional straw poll. the results are out tomorrow evening. who do you think will come out on top saturday?

gregory john olson says probe some guy named marco rand ryan. oh, yes, i know him. and' lie suarez says ronald reagan, of course. we want your vote. like us on facebook to follow our take on everything cpac. up next, is now the right time to buy a home? we'll have our housing expert. dr. jason burke took his experience in the e.r. and created a hangover cure using an i.v. administered form l.a. he renovated a bus into a mobile facility and dubbed it hangover heaven. treating sufferers up and down the famous strip. [ female announcer ] it balances you... it fills you with energy... and it gives you what you are looking for

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developing news on wall street this afternoon. the dow's ten-day winning streak could be coming to an end. this has been the longest streak since 1996 but stock are down on some weaker than expected number about consumer sent i am. never fearful main street is here. we're talking about the housing market which is decimated by the economic collapse in 2008 and has been struggling to come back ever since. as we approach the spring, time when there is generally an

uptick in the number of buyers, there are signs of recovery. we have seen 15 consecutive months of increasing home prices. and prices are expected to rise 8% this year alone. so if you're in the market for a home, this may be the time to get in the game. it depends where you want to buy. good news. people are buying houses again. the prices are going up. >> they are. >> i saw a report that in nevada, a state that was probably hit the hardest by the housing bubble, foreclosure starts were up 334% in february. a number of other states where there have been huge spikes. so help me figure out what has been going on? movie the real issue is the correlation between housing market and the unemployment rate. so if you look at nevada's unemployment rate, it is at 9.7%. it is no longer the highest unemployment rate in the country.

but 9.7% is pretty high. what you're going to see is a lot of these foreclosures happening, because quite frankly, people want to go buy property, invest in property where the jobs are. no jobs, they won't buy the properties snrm my folks in connecticut have had their house on the market for over a year. my dad is optimistic. he thinks this summer people will start buying houses again. is he right? >> i think he is right. the reason why, the urban centers, where we, most of us live. i live in new york city. there is a lot of low inventory. so what is happening, it is very difficult to get a house, let's say, in new york or miami in look. inventories are at the nine-year low in new york city. there is also a thing that i like to call, frugal fatigue. basically, people didn't want to necessarily buy a lot back in 2008 when the housing market crashed. what we're going to see is all

this building going on. the demand will go up. there is all this activity happening. so i think yes, in the next couple months, especially outside the city centers, in connecticut, schools are better there. there is, people are at very good local governments. they want that for where they live. so yes, i think your father is right in that sense. >> building on that. after a downturn, housing is one of the last thing that pick up. is this an indicator that we should be optimistic that housing is starting to pick up? >> i think obviously you look at housing as one of the economic indicators. we're looking at consumer spending. it came in a little bit lower. as you see, and it is fluctuated over the last couple months. the dow has hit its, the highest it's been in the last five years. it took a little dip today. these are all factors that are coming into this big sphere that we call the economy. so yes, housing might have something to do with it.

you have to look at how everyone else is spending. people that are investing in the dow, 80% of the dow's wealth is held by 10% of the country's wealth. if those people are feeling more wealthy, they'll buy more real estate and spend more. so you will see that frugal fatigue. people will spend a little bit more and buy more invest many properties. >> another news item from wall street is a congressional investigation found jpmorgan had misled the public. investors, regulators in connection with that massive $6 billion loss that they took last year. that got me thinking about the state of our regulatory environments. have we clean up the causes. one of the major causes of the last mess came from the housing market where you had more gangs going out to people who couldn't necessarily afford them. they were being tricked into them and not educated properly. then being packages up and sold. they were rated in a way that wasn't appropriate. have we fixed any of that mess? >> especially with this london

wales situation. i think it is coming to the forefront. i think we have a long road to go before we completely say yes, this is fixed. to give you an example. do you know how much it cost to foreclose on a house that banks have been spending? about $50,000. if you can manning, for every house that those banks foreclosed on, they spend $50,000 on average for all the legal fees, the paperwork to do it properly. can you manning had they just put that back into the consumer's pocket and let them either lowered their rates or let them live in their houses and let them have to, reduce their payments. so i think we have a little bit of a ways to go with that. but they are focusing on that. >> are banks getting better at doing that? >> yes. absolutely. threatening the government will come down. they're down on them. with that said, j.p. morgan reported on a 53% increase on revenues for the last quarter they reported. >> they obviously, they're trying to, what they're doing

now is that they're catering to the private client. so before, it was the average consumer that was going out and buying that more gang. what's really driving the business of a lot of these banks is the clients with high net worth individuals that we were about. >> some ennews but i think i'm sticking with my 60 square foot apartment for now. >> that might be ideal. >> thank you for joining us. a little bit of a departure from our typical conversation that's the there is a typical conversation here on "the cycle." a book getting rave reviews even before it was released. now it is flying off the shelves and being compared to the great gatsby. filthy rich in rising asia.

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rich. strike that. it a novel about a boy and a pretty girl who ride up from nothing searching for fortune and end up losing themselves. when i think about it, it is more of a satire with subtle digs. books that claim they'll make you richer and happier. i take that back. it is more of a mythology with characters. mysterious locations teaching that everything we do is a form of self-help. this is a bit of a riddle wrapped in an enigma folded into a conundrum but people are saying it may be the book to look out for. joining us, mohsin hamid. the book that refuses to be drawn into a box. how to get filthy rich in asia. they call the main character, you. we've seen it before, bright lights, big city. hardly ever in the novel form. why did you choose to do that as a writer and what do you think that gives to the read we are the main character being called you? >> well, i think what happens is

that there is a relationship between writer and reader in any book. when you start calling the main character you, that relationship becomes a bit more explicit. in this novel i wanted there to be a place for the reader to be a character and also to be aware of themselves reading as they read the book. >> the book as toure mentioned is kind of a commentary on the self-help genre. it gets mocked a lot. was this more of an affectionate kind of commentary on self-help? >> it started as a joke. i originally thought it would be funny to have this book be a self-help book about how to get rich. as i wrote it, i realize that had writing flofls fnovels for kind of self-help. it started to feel like a sincere project.

i thought even reading novels in a way is self-help. >> but writing novels is torturous. >> what doesn't kill you make you stronger. >> that's right. self-imagine t >> your character wants to be rich. he gets there but through some very corrupt practices. i was reminded of the quote, behind every great fortune lies a great crime. do you agree with that in. >> i think it is an interesting idea. getting ahead as we've seen in every country, most recently in the u.s., people made a lot of money bending a lot of rule. that happens all over the world, pakistan and asia, the lower level, the mid level, the top level. i think there is a lot of trickery that go on in the markets. >> are there different messages in this book for eastern and western audiences? >> i'm not convinced there is such a thing as an eastern audience or a western audience. with my second novel, i had one

guy with dreadlocks come to me and say he felt he was the main guy who grows a beard and moves back to pakistan after working on wall street. he told me. the american told me that he had gone to the ivy league. work on wall street and dropped out to become a yoga instructor. that's when i realized, writing about a college student idealist who goes to work in the sector and doesn't like it. there isn't one kind of reader. one east or west, there is just one people. >> what are we going to learn? you're mocking self-help but there may be some layer of reality of self-help at some point in this. do we learn anything about how to actually get rich in rising asia? >> i think we do. it takes pretty seriously the objective of trying to tell you how to get rich. it reveals the other narrative. the market is all about growth. more money, more cars. but human existence is about loss. getting older, losing your loved

ones, dying of that second part, how to deal with loss, is a spiritual question although it is a secular book. >> looking at your lessons in the chapters, one of them i agree with. work for yourself. if you're drawing a salary, it is very unlikely you're going to get rich. then you also say don't fall in love will so be rich without love. without intimacy? that sounds like a spiritual poverty. >> it is a spiritual poverty. the idea is if you privilege above all else the economy or economic success, if that becomes the number one driver and it is becoming a more and more important driver all over the world, what do you have to give up? what gets in the way of getting rich? intimacy and empathy. imagining what other people feel. those are the kinds of thing that do get in the way. >> all right. mohsin hamid, people are saying great things.

the conversation that keeps getting louder. first cheryl sandberg encourages women to lean in. now a cfo is warning what women will miss out on if they do. a personal back spin. a new study shows why this is an issue for all of us. as we take a break. i need a break from the irish. i need some coffee and maple syrup and jam. [ male announcer ] zzzquil™ sleep-aid.

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careful what you wish for. that's the message coming from erin callan. >> i did achieve great success in my career. i'm just trying to provide a bit of what i'll call a warning label that, hey, there's something else to think about as you're leaning in, so to speak. >> lean in is of course a reference to facebook coo cher sandberg's new book and motto urging women to be lean back but lean in when it come to the workplace. >> i leaned in far, very far. i had many young women over time that i've tried to give advice to, guidance to. and i would always be very honor and say don't do it like me. >> in an exclusive interview with ann curry, she said her

professional success came at great cost to her personal life, family and relationships. at 47, she is now trying to get pregnant. but this isn't just a we will's issue. it is a family issue. a new study finds half of all working men are struggling with about aing work and family. i have a lot of passionate feelings about this. what i thought was so interesting about erin callan, i think what she is saying, she said very clearly. i leaned in too far. and another point of her message was that looking back, she needed to be committed to her career but she didn't need to go to the extremes. to me there's a confluence between what they are saying. sandberg is saying ladies, you have to lean in. i think part of the problem with why women are not leaning in as sandberg puts it, they know that, they feel they would have to be the erin callan in order

to achieve that level of successful they would have to give everything up and be the perfect career woman, perfectly dedicated. meet this impossible bar and they say that doesn't sound so great. to me where sandberg misses the mark, rather than telling women you need to lean in, she needs to be convincing them they don't have to be perfect to take on that prong them don't have to meet this crazy unrealistic bar that they have set up to take that promotion to continue to stay in the workplace even after they have had children or when they're planning a family. i saw this a lot when i was running for office and the research that i've done around women running for office. you find that when women run for office, they win just about as often as men do. it's not once get into the process. women are about a third less likely to run for office themselves much to see themselves as candidates. and i think it is partly because they're trying to hole

themselves to the erin callan bar of perfection. if i'm not hillary clinton, then i shouldn't be running for office. i think sandberg misses the park by not telling women they don't have to be perk. another thing about sandberg, there are a lot of women who can carry forward the message she does. the information about the ambition gap and ways for women to negotiate more effectively. she had such ties in the corporate world that she's lenking for her lean-in circles. i wish that she would be pressuring them to have more flexible workplace policies. that would make such a difference for so many women in their lives. and the reality is we do have some institution alibi as. when women take off work, they are judged more harshly than men. so on the one hand, we do set up unrealistic bars. noonld we're partly perceiving the reality that we are judged more harangly than men. >> i agree with you. and ambition, when it come to

women is such a complicated, complex issue. and we don't even have a language to talk about it appropriately. and so you get other women sort of scolding or criticizing each other for quote/unquote choices that they've made in their professional and personal lives. that seems to miss the point to me. thinking about my own situation, i've certainly put career first. but it never felt like a choice to me. a choice assumes that i've knowingly decided to sacrifice some things. to me, you know, being ambitious is just part of my personality. i wouldn't feel right without it. and frankly, if i had chosen to become a mother and a wife, i would have been ambitious at that, too. i think it is a lot more complicated than the conversations would lead most

people to believe. >> it is more complicated than the discussion is already being had. i think over the next ten years, you'll start to see the stakes rise for you. and for smaller children with one level of choices, when you get to the ann marie slaughter area of it, 12-year-olds and 15-year-olds at a critical period of life and need you there, not to change their diapers but to tell them which way to go in life, and make them feel loved at a difficult time, early teenage years. and u having the chance to zoom upward in your career, you get to the challenge point of a parent. as the women's issue, i have all the respect in the world for, but i can speak only to the issue for men and that the balancing act for dads is extraordinarily difficult as well. you know, being a man is about, to me, is about providing for your family. and a lot of times i find myself the work requires me to miss a

bedtime or to miss a morning time, and it hurts to have my wife say, you know, hey, you know, your son misses you, your kids miss you because may have to go over here to work. but i think about my father. he wasn't around all the time because he was providing for us. so finding that balance for dads is a very emotional and difficult thing as well. >> well, i think that's just what it is. i common thread i'm seeing here is not necessarily about men or about women. it's about people who are extra driven and who are extra motivated in their careers. i think the more driven, more motivated you are from a career standpoint, these things in your personal life, whether it's relationships with a partner, whether it's children, social life, anything like that. a lot of these things start to go by the wayside. i think there are a lot of people who look up like erin cowan did after a number of years and said, wait a minute, what did i miss out on here? the difference i see where it might be unfair for women is, you know, a woman can spend her 20s and 30s and into her 40s

full throttle career like erin cowan and there's no family. you look up at 45 or 50 years old and there's no family, no children, and you say, maybe i was too focused on work or whatever. a man can be so focused on getting married at 25, can neglect the family life, can climb the corporate ladder and everything, wake up at 55 and say, i blew it on the personal life on the home life and can start a family. a man can marry a younger woman and have a kid at 55, 60, 65. it's unfair. men can have it both ways i think in a way maybe that women can't. >> sing it, sister. >> there's interesting research, too, showing that women who are mothers are penalized in terms of promotions, races being considered for projects. dads actually get a little bit of a boost and a premium, so interesting research there. all right. you can catch ann curry's full interview with erin cowan on "rock center with brian williams" at some p.m. eastern on nbc.

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right now, much of brooklyn is tense and on edge. this week hundreds protested and held vigils for four straight days because on saturday night a 16-year-old boy named kamani gray shot and killed by undercover police. the story is unclear at this point. officers say gray had a .38 and pointed it at them. if that's true, then it's a justified killing. but some are doubting that story. some eyewitnesss say gray did not have a gun. i'd like to see if his fingerprints are on the gun found at the scene. officers say they yelled, don't

move, but others say they did not identify themselves as nypd and gray may have thought he was being robbed. what was gray doing to attract police attention? standing on a corner. when they approached, he walked away and grabbed at his waistband and made cops zero in on him. this is part of the culture of stop and frisk. young black men are treated as suspicious until proven not. nypd recently conducted their 5 millionth stop and frisk. 4.3 million of them on black and brown men. the overwhelming majority of them not arrested as a result. now comes the part where the boy gets put on public trial. if he had a concealed weapon, if he was in a gang, if he had prior convictions then the logic goes he can not be defended. but the law is not here only to protect the angels among us. soon you'll hear a lot about how the cops in this case were black and hispanic which, of course, means it's not racial, but we know that's not real. we have a way of criminalizing black boys and the biases affect both blacks and whites.